The Oracle

This is one of those things I've often considered, call it a curiousity or even on days a sense of wonder. I see large scale organisations such as the Pagan Federation fighting for the rights of Pagan's everyday, infact I was astounded at some of the work that has happened in the UK during recent years.

But part of me is thinking, how many of us feel that our views are being reflected by such groups?

I know once I had a fantastic conversation about this with a friend at the Neath moot, we discussed how there should be a council of eldars that could represent the ideas of the diverse nature out there. For example it could be made up of people from different covens, beliefs and most importantly enough solitaries to have a voice (we all know about the old lineage debate).

I felt during that discussion that in all honesty Pagan's needed a better system, I won't knock the work some of these large groups have done but to me there is a sense of detatchment from them. I guess its the age old problem of politics, in order to promote better understanding and get our rights at the front of thinking, we've had to sacrifice a great deal.

So what I'm wondering really is what are your views on this?

Do we need a better if not more connected representation for Pagan's?

I know its a big one and this small post isn't doing the topic justice, but seriously its one of those thoughts that I know everyone has had at some point. For example even this small forum had the intention of building a community that would help other Pagan's.

So lets hear your views

saying its a toughie is an understatement!

we all know there are so many different kinds of paganism that it would be impossible to represent them all. plus, if you had a council of eldars to represent paganism, who gets to decide who sits on the council? in my mind (and bear in mind i haven't had long to think about it) it might be an idea to 'classify' different types of paganism into quite broad sections. by this i mean things like 'norse paths', 'wiccan paths'.....not to imply that they are at all similar but that their roots have a certain commonality. that hasn't described very well i know but i only have a few minutes cos i gotta go shopping!
but by broadly classifying you may be able to have 'representatives', a few per group to represent that group in the council, hopefully looking to the needs of the majority of paths.

Adarian, believe it or not the PF is in America, they have the PF international which pretty much helps where they can from what I gather. Its pretty easy to find the main website if you're ever interested in giving it a browse, if I'm honest the international website is actually quite good in terms of information.

I know this is a tough topic to discuss but all too often there are Pagan's who encounter problems with such things as discrimination and they don't realise that there is help out there. Though I will say on a few occasions I have asked for advice from such groups as the PF and got very little in return. Now part of that may be down to me not being a member or it might be that my questions where a little too broad.

But personally I believe a large scale venture is a bad idea, even though I quite like the idea of a council myself I can see all too easily the flaws that can occur. Maybe what we need is seperate smaller bodies that meet on a larger scale once in a while to discuss matters. In a funny way I guess I'm thinking the Pagan version of local council.

Still theres a lot of thought that needs to go into what this discussion is, hopefully we'll all get some ideas as we go along. To be honest I think a lot of these physical bodies out there underestimate the communities forged on the net.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say: Who cares?!

I have to be honest; I've never felt the need or desire to be 'represented' by anyone, let alone a group professing to 'promote our ways' when there are so many diverse 'ways' to promote, the majority of which are not fully understood by those practicing them. To me it just smacks of homogenisation and catagorisation, neither of which am I a great fan of.

Normally I would agree with you, but in our current world we need representatives in order to prevent Paganism falling into the dark ages again. I may not like it and nor will many other Pagan but at the end of the day we need to have some united front that we can present on a world stage. Without it we wouldn't be seeing things like Hand Fastings becoming legal or to another point, people losing their jobs due to revealing their faith being given justice.

As I said, a lot of us may not like it, but without it we would be able to be open about who we are. Its a case of making it work or hiding in the dark and presenting two faces. Personally if it wasn't for some rather vocal people in Pagan history, then we'd all still be hiding and none of us would be reading the rather well written material we all come across in books and the internet. As a matter of fact I wouldn't be typing this post

Now I'm not saying that groups like the PF are the ones doing all this, but they are part of the system that allows it. All I'm trying to get it is that maybe the system needs a rethink, because so many Pagan's aren't getting the help they need with certain things and not all views are being reflected (yes I know it isn't possible to get all views, but I feel not enough is being done to try).

i agree. i don't really like the idea of some dude i don't know saying he represents my beliefs, especially as i have always been solitary, but if pagans want (and i hate this word) equality in modern society, then something needs to happen. we live in a sad society that on some levels allocates rights according to religion. society won't admit that. but its true. we need people to stand up and say 'we are here, get over it, get used to it. if you want to know what we're about, check us out.' without fear of reprisals.

cadno, i like your idea of local councils. that gives more people a voice in the pagan community.

In theory this would be great. In working practice it has too many problems. The main one of these problems revolves around personal opinion as to how things should be done. You can see this in the Christian world when you get a group of different churches of the same denomination together. They argue about everything because they all do different things but do so within a loose framework that is similar. Everyone has the opinion their way is better than anyone else’s. Ásatrú is a good example of pagan groups that argues among itself. You have the Folkish who only want those of Germanic lineage to practice, and then you have other groups who are open to all who wish to honor the Norse Gods and Goddesses. The debate between just this one type of Pagan is very heated so I can only imagine what it would be like trying to gather up other branches of Paganism together.

Yes indeed........a difficult one. Personally I wouldn't knock either the Pagan Federation or Children of Artemis; the PF in fact has done some fantastic work over the years especially re anti-defammation for example; at one time many years ago as the old Pagan Front it was one of the few voices speaking up for paganism. COA used to have a service for putting people in touch with reputable covens and pagan groups in their own area although i believe they have discontinued this now. Both groups however continue to organise events and conferences and offer good general information as well as being means for people to keep in touch. But I do understand why some pagans are uncomforatable with large organisations and I can see their point of view.

In some parts of the country they have informal "pagan councils" where different groups and solitaries meet up once in a while to discuss issues of mutual interest or concern ; iron out any difficulties, try and sort out any "bitchcraft and bicca" going on , organise social events , moots and even joint sabbats. This idea appals to me and I have tried to sell it to the pagan scene here in South Wales more than once over the years unfortunately without success. Ah well maybe one day.......

BB Pete Nash

Were you having that chat with Tanis by chance?

He sort of put the idea in my head a few years ago even joking by using the title COE (council of eldars). Peter if you're willing it might well be worth bringing it back out of the woodwork, with a few of the newer covens forming in the area it may well be worth a shot.

I know I'd be more than willing to take part in something of that nature, after all its not much out of my time for a few hours discussing the finer points of what Pagan's can do to help. I know one of the biggest things to get past is getting groups to work together that may not agree with each others ways or even one coven acknowledging anothers tradition.

Worth a thought though

Lynx what you are refering to with the old debating (ok that's putting it mildly) is one of the biggest issues faced when getting Pagan's together. My old mentor put it to me like this 'getting Pagan's to work together is like herding cats'.

But I firmly believe its worth a shot, its the same with anything in the craft, if you put the energy into it then you can achieve what your goal is. Its just the big question of getting everyone else to put the same energy into the same goal.

Lynx what you are refering to with the old debating (ok that's putting it mildly) is one of the biggest issues faced when getting Pagan's together. My old mentor put it to me like this 'getting Pagan's to work together is like herding cats'.

I had to laugh at that quote. I hope you don't think I am opposed to such a group. I would like to see somewhere that we can go to share ideas, but those coming there must be open to sharing or it will not work. I just know how much trouble I have with my small group of acquaintances. I have one “friend” who is of the belief that all pagans are Wiccans. You can’t convince her of anything else. I have tried to tell her that I don’t practice the same as she does but it is like talking to a brick wall. She is still convinced that I should follow the same path as her because after all we are both pagans. I have another friend who worships the Norse Pantheon, but does so in a Wiccan setting. She was surprised that I didn’t worship the way she did because we are both honoring the same set of deities. I explained that I am not Wiccan therefore, I do things differently. She is respectful and curious about how I do things. Yet a third example is a guy I met thru an Ásatrú group I was briefly a member of. He still talks to me in order to deliver me from the influence of the “mis-guided Wiccans” (his words not mine). He can’t see how I can be true to my deities if I am associating with Wiccans who he feels are following a made up religion (again his words not mine). I personally don’t see a problem with it.

I have yet to go to one of the Pagan Pride Days close by because I have heard too much about how they end up in a free for all between the different groups. A friend who is just starting out and trying to find her path went this year and said the different groups were just there to recruit you from whatever path you were already following to join their path. I understand the getting information out about your group but from what she was saying it was a big competition to get the most members to join.

I like what we have here to be honest with you. Everyone here is respectful of how others do things. We may not all agree but we listen. Makes you wonder if we can do it here why can’t we do it in the outside world?

Hi Cadno

I can't really remember as its about 5 years since I last tried to sell this to the local pagan community; Stu is a pretty good friend of mine so I imagine he would have been one of the people I put it to.......first attempt I had a bit of "well-we're-not-coming-if-they-are" ; which kind of defeats the object. I may try it again one day but I can't do it on my own - it has to be a team effort, and it'll fail again unless the local pagan folk are behind me.......

BB Peter

Hit the nail on the head there Peter!!

What you need is a little support, seriously it would be worth considering with the new covens and a lot of the solitaries now coming out of the woodwork

Lynx, I know what you mean and Peter even emphasized that point with how his attempt failed last time around. Its really hard to get some people to see outside of what they are comfortable with or feel is the right way.

I suppose what we need to do is start thinking about what we have in common and start considering why the differences bother us?